Jonathan Haidt and his team say teenage girls are depressed because they use social media too much. It could also be that girls are depressed because the outlooks for girls have deteriorated
Michel Houellebecq is quite strong on this topic (without focussing on girls specifically):
“...in societies like ours sex truly represents a second system of differentiation, completely independent of money; and as a system of differentiation it functions just as mercilessly. The effects of these two systems are, furthermore, strictly equivalent. Just like unrestrained economic liberalism, and for similar reasons, sexual liberalism produces phenomena of absolutely pauperization. Some men make love every day; others five or six times in their life, or never… It’s what’s known as the ‘law of the market.’ … Economic liberalism is an extension of the domain of the struggle, its extension to all ages and all classes of society. Sexual liberalism is likewise an extension of the domain of the struggle, its extension to all ages and all classes of society.”
from the novel Whatever, originally published L’extension du domaine de la lutte
How would you apply Pygmalion to what I described? Her attempts to build a "special career" being akin to Pygmalion building the ivory statue of Galtea, but unlike Pygmalion finding out it doesn't get her love?
It's almost like most women get depressed when society doesn't gently lead them the right way into the domestic sphere where they'll have a happy and fulfilled life...
Social media is definitely an issue when it comes to unrealistic expectations, though. I wouldn't say it affects most people, and it's not even about social media specifically. Social media is just the manifestation of our sick, decaying society. And of course women, being more environmentally sensitive than men, are hit the hardest.
I think it's also important to point out that as globalism has drastically changed the job market and inflation has gutted the middle class, young people are naturally reacting to their poor prospects overall as they see their opportunities to become an adult curtailed.
On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, the Amish still become adults, although many of them are doing other things than a generation ago. So far, the extremely local Amish have adapted to the global job market. I think mainstream society could to that too, if we had the ambition. Making enough money to physically support a family is in no way impossible. It is overwhelmingly a culturally based question of where one should live and what one should do in order to count.
"By this I don't mean to say girls were, or are, lazy, or get everything for free, as some incels claim". Man-hating feminists will grow old alone with cats and box wine.
> Incels say young women should be happy with the situation because they have more power to choose.
This is absolutely true, though. There is a critical asymmetry between the men and the women you're talking about. For the women, literally all they would have to do is _nothing_ and the problem would go away. Just _don't_ open Tinder. Just _don't_ go to the guy's house. But for men, the men you're talking, there is nothing they can do, and nothing they can stop doing, that will fix anything for them
this was good. however, i suspect the rise in depression cannot be attributed to any one pet theory, but rather the compounding effects of the world generally getting worse in most metrics.
social media is an attention sponge. in general, what are some effective ways to combat depression? taking care of onesself. cooking, exercise, social time etc. if your attention is absorbed in spending 5+ hours on social media every day as your cited graphs indicate, thats 5+ less possible hours you have to take care of yourself. of course people are going to be more depressed.
"The question is how this could be a new phenomenon. Everyone, both males and females, have always strived for the best partner they could get. Why has this instinct wrecked the partner market only for the last decade or two? "
It is difficult to just put this statement in without context, because to assume this is to destroy the entire argument. Best partner means many things. For men, the prettiest girl they think they can find. It is why women obsess over their looks. For women, it is looking for the most accomplished man they can find, by way of economic success. Men will marry down. Women will not. As women have become more educated and economically accomplished, they are looking for a man more accomplished and economically secure than themselves. This is a mathematical impossibility at scale.
I'm sure it will shake out - but the reason for women unhappiness - which has been climbing essentially as they became more economically and professionally accomplished - may be because their sense of accomplishment in finding a life partner has deteriorated. Demographic assumptions are that women will increasingly not marry. The outlook for the millennial generation re-producing itself I think is overly optimistic. Until women re-assess what they want in a partner, and realizing they are becoming well more credentialed compared to men (60/40 college split right now) married family formation will continue to deteriorate.
A side note - what they expect from government is also misplaced. Men have decided they are done with paying for it, and voted this term pretty ferociously to shrink government. So single college educated women have some interesting decisions to make. Men still way more proportionately than women do the dirty dangerous jobs that pay more. So despite a loss of credentials, they still make more. If they are unwilling to pay the taxes necessary to make uncle sugar viable, it will be an interesting few decades of adjustment.
Funny, hadn’t heard “Becky” before, but it’s both sad and accurate.
We tend to focus on the liberal blue haired whales, and not the Beckies.
But so many times, when you see a late 30 or early 40s woman online, depressed, and lamenting her choices, she is moderately attractive, but not beautiful.
A certain facial physiognomy geometry that’s “off,” but you can’t quite put your finger on it until you play, “she would be prettier if xxx.”
Nothing will save them but themself. They should have stopped the Karen and the Stacy from wrecking this entire planet sociocultural sphere, and they could still do it. They outnumbered the landwhales but through stupidity and afterthought they let things degrade until the hammer is all but inevitable.
That’s the crux. Women are incapable of saving themselves. They adapt and conform to whatever hierarchy surrounds them. Except in Africa, and that is a wonderful place.
I recently had discussion with a female friend who is having quite severe problems with depression, and even more severe problems due to the depression. Not to go into too many details, but I asked her explicitly "do you feel that you are unworthy of love if you do not achieve something special and extraordinary in your life?". Her eyes teared up, and she said she hated me for pointing it out for her. She doesn't really understand what her value is, and even less that she has value even if she doesn't perform academically.
She's been trying and failing for years to get a "special" career, but it's pretty obvious to me that she is _desperate_ for love and commitment. Her dysfunctional response to this need has, as is usual for many a woman today, been one night stands and flings with "exciting" men that either are profoundly unsuitable for commitment, or which she is incapable of getting to commit. Also, she's a single mom, due to the aforementioned.
Judging by the Nokia candy bar phones, I’m guessing this was filmed in the early to mid 2000’s, before phone and social media saturation. I’m not sure how representative a sample these women are but if so, more than a few liberal European Beckies seem very keen to marry *extremely* low-status men (poor, uneducated, unemployed) just to get affection, love, and commitment, even knowing it’s likely fake.
Frenchwoman Angel is almost literally quoting you when she says 30-year old French men are not willing to marry and start a family.
So Beckies haven’t been having a good time in the dating market for a long time.
Such an interesting post!
Michel Houellebecq is quite strong on this topic (without focussing on girls specifically):
“...in societies like ours sex truly represents a second system of differentiation, completely independent of money; and as a system of differentiation it functions just as mercilessly. The effects of these two systems are, furthermore, strictly equivalent. Just like unrestrained economic liberalism, and for similar reasons, sexual liberalism produces phenomena of absolutely pauperization. Some men make love every day; others five or six times in their life, or never… It’s what’s known as the ‘law of the market.’ … Economic liberalism is an extension of the domain of the struggle, its extension to all ages and all classes of society. Sexual liberalism is likewise an extension of the domain of the struggle, its extension to all ages and all classes of society.”
from the novel Whatever, originally published L’extension du domaine de la lutte
How would you apply Pygmalion to what I described? Her attempts to build a "special career" being akin to Pygmalion building the ivory statue of Galtea, but unlike Pygmalion finding out it doesn't get her love?
It's almost like most women get depressed when society doesn't gently lead them the right way into the domestic sphere where they'll have a happy and fulfilled life...
Social media is definitely an issue when it comes to unrealistic expectations, though. I wouldn't say it affects most people, and it's not even about social media specifically. Social media is just the manifestation of our sick, decaying society. And of course women, being more environmentally sensitive than men, are hit the hardest.
I think it's also important to point out that as globalism has drastically changed the job market and inflation has gutted the middle class, young people are naturally reacting to their poor prospects overall as they see their opportunities to become an adult curtailed.
On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, the Amish still become adults, although many of them are doing other things than a generation ago. So far, the extremely local Amish have adapted to the global job market. I think mainstream society could to that too, if we had the ambition. Making enough money to physically support a family is in no way impossible. It is overwhelmingly a culturally based question of where one should live and what one should do in order to count.
"By this I don't mean to say girls were, or are, lazy, or get everything for free, as some incels claim". Man-hating feminists will grow old alone with cats and box wine.
Good, Becky Deserves To Feel Bad.
> Incels say young women should be happy with the situation because they have more power to choose.
This is absolutely true, though. There is a critical asymmetry between the men and the women you're talking about. For the women, literally all they would have to do is _nothing_ and the problem would go away. Just _don't_ open Tinder. Just _don't_ go to the guy's house. But for men, the men you're talking, there is nothing they can do, and nothing they can stop doing, that will fix anything for them
Exactly. Thank you.
lmao
this was good. however, i suspect the rise in depression cannot be attributed to any one pet theory, but rather the compounding effects of the world generally getting worse in most metrics.
social media is an attention sponge. in general, what are some effective ways to combat depression? taking care of onesself. cooking, exercise, social time etc. if your attention is absorbed in spending 5+ hours on social media every day as your cited graphs indicate, thats 5+ less possible hours you have to take care of yourself. of course people are going to be more depressed.
The author ignores the fact that men account for 80% of suicides.
"The question is how this could be a new phenomenon. Everyone, both males and females, have always strived for the best partner they could get. Why has this instinct wrecked the partner market only for the last decade or two? "
It is difficult to just put this statement in without context, because to assume this is to destroy the entire argument. Best partner means many things. For men, the prettiest girl they think they can find. It is why women obsess over their looks. For women, it is looking for the most accomplished man they can find, by way of economic success. Men will marry down. Women will not. As women have become more educated and economically accomplished, they are looking for a man more accomplished and economically secure than themselves. This is a mathematical impossibility at scale.
I'm sure it will shake out - but the reason for women unhappiness - which has been climbing essentially as they became more economically and professionally accomplished - may be because their sense of accomplishment in finding a life partner has deteriorated. Demographic assumptions are that women will increasingly not marry. The outlook for the millennial generation re-producing itself I think is overly optimistic. Until women re-assess what they want in a partner, and realizing they are becoming well more credentialed compared to men (60/40 college split right now) married family formation will continue to deteriorate.
A side note - what they expect from government is also misplaced. Men have decided they are done with paying for it, and voted this term pretty ferociously to shrink government. So single college educated women have some interesting decisions to make. Men still way more proportionately than women do the dirty dangerous jobs that pay more. So despite a loss of credentials, they still make more. If they are unwilling to pay the taxes necessary to make uncle sugar viable, it will be an interesting few decades of adjustment.
Funny, hadn’t heard “Becky” before, but it’s both sad and accurate.
We tend to focus on the liberal blue haired whales, and not the Beckies.
But so many times, when you see a late 30 or early 40s woman online, depressed, and lamenting her choices, she is moderately attractive, but not beautiful.
A certain facial physiognomy geometry that’s “off,” but you can’t quite put your finger on it until you play, “she would be prettier if xxx.”
Perhaps memes will save them…
Nothing will save them but themself. They should have stopped the Karen and the Stacy from wrecking this entire planet sociocultural sphere, and they could still do it. They outnumbered the landwhales but through stupidity and afterthought they let things degrade until the hammer is all but inevitable.
That’s the crux. Women are incapable of saving themselves. They adapt and conform to whatever hierarchy surrounds them. Except in Africa, and that is a wonderful place.
Sorry Becky. Just being a hole won't do
I recently had discussion with a female friend who is having quite severe problems with depression, and even more severe problems due to the depression. Not to go into too many details, but I asked her explicitly "do you feel that you are unworthy of love if you do not achieve something special and extraordinary in your life?". Her eyes teared up, and she said she hated me for pointing it out for her. She doesn't really understand what her value is, and even less that she has value even if she doesn't perform academically.
She's been trying and failing for years to get a "special" career, but it's pretty obvious to me that she is _desperate_ for love and commitment. Her dysfunctional response to this need has, as is usual for many a woman today, been one night stands and flings with "exciting" men that either are profoundly unsuitable for commitment, or which she is incapable of getting to commit. Also, she's a single mom, due to the aforementioned.
Tell her the myth of Pygmalion. It is cruel, but it must be done
I’m going to simply just say every time on this: STEPHEN HAWKING
Thank you. I have referenced this post here: https://expressiveegg.substack.com/p/man-and-woman-no-paywall-comments
A bit late to the discussion but read this the day after watching this https://youtu.be/Sp84fX30UVg
Judging by the Nokia candy bar phones, I’m guessing this was filmed in the early to mid 2000’s, before phone and social media saturation. I’m not sure how representative a sample these women are but if so, more than a few liberal European Beckies seem very keen to marry *extremely* low-status men (poor, uneducated, unemployed) just to get affection, love, and commitment, even knowing it’s likely fake.
Frenchwoman Angel is almost literally quoting you when she says 30-year old French men are not willing to marry and start a family.
So Beckies haven’t been having a good time in the dating market for a long time.