Great essay. I’ve been meaning to read this book for a very long time, as I live in New York City and have seen the same dynamic play out with regard to the college status jockeying game, where parents will put in a lot of effort to get their kids into a brand name college, just so they won’t lose status in front of their peers. It’s what led to the “Varsity Blues scandal” here in America a few years back. The college name is more important than the education.
This is so horrifying. Seriously I find it really awful to contemplate that a bunch of people living in safety and plenty could end up like this. For hundreds of thousands of generations people lived in ignorance and illiteracy, on the edge of starvation, perpetually fearing disease and attack, grinding grain, carrying water, repairing their clothes by hand, and carving out amulets to wear in the hopes that they'd survive their appendicitis. And then, after the technological revolution brings wealth undreamed of, and all problems are solved... the Age of the Fashionable Handbag arises.
All this behavior sounds a lot like what went on amongst the nobility in times past. I think Tove has a point that people who don’t have to work or actually get things done just make social interactions their work.
There was a book back in the early 2000s called “The Nanny Diaries” which was a fictionalized satire on these sorts of Manhattan socialite women, as seen through the eyes of their nanny. It was perceived as a bit of an over-the-top satire by most readers; but my sister-in-law who used to be a nanny for a wealthy family said it was spot on with very little exaggeration.
I agree that people do find things to occupy themselves when there's nothing else for them to do: "Idle hands are the Devil's workshop." But if all of these hands are idle, why are handbag ladies playing social games rather than committing petty acts of vandalism or thievery?
When my boys are idle, they don't play social games. What they *do* do depends on their age: the younger ones they run around and throw things, while the older ones or draw and write computer programs. For myself on my vacation I try to be as alone as possible to write stories, make music, make some progress in philosophy, and otherwise pursue some creative endeavor. When I was still going to school, that was pretty much my summer vacation; I never engaged in handbaggery like this. Ask Tove or Anders if they've ever done anything like it themselves!
On the other hand, I know people at work who behave like handbag ladies, just in a watered down sort of way; I've just never encountered the phenomenon in its purest form. Really, it doesn't seem as though the lack of employment *causes* this; rather, it removes any distraction from whatever it is that people really want to be doing.
Wait a minute, 6-3-3...In Sweden that's not an experiment, but the way it is, always (?) was and always will be. (And, predictably, I actually participated in a physical fight as a 15-year-old, in 1999, not because I wanted to but because someone bigger and meaner wanted to). My two oldest children attended the same school until very recently and things really seems a lot better. I used to explain that with an increase in resources: They more or less doubled the number of teachers/ape-minders per student and it somehow seems to work.
How old are you, plus-minus? I always held the prejudice that Poles are studious compared to Swedes, probably because of a high pace of economic development: People were rather poor but hopeful, I thought. Meanwhile in Sweden, people could afford to live here and now, because grown-up life was so far away, and there was always a bunch of second chances. Higher education was not a certain road to success in Sweden in the early 2000s and most of the bullies seem to have gotten perfectly decent lower middle-class lives. Would you say those things were different in Poland?
I'm in my thirties. There certainly was a huge push from parents that we should study because it's a ticket to a better life, but... wasn't that present everywhere? This seems like a general 90s-00s mindset, before higher education lost most of its signaling value.
I wouldn't say the uh, less academically minded people got decent middle-class lives - those who were smart (even if street smart) went abroad to work for better money, those who stayed in Poland didn't have much to look forward to.
I suppose some of us had a subtext of "in a few years this asshole will be digging ditches (or realistically, be unemployed) while I have a comfy life" to our school interactions... but honestly that's not something you think about all that much when you're a teenager.
Hm, I have no memory that parents in general encouraged their children to study when I grew up. I think the typical Swedish attitude is that school should fix that: Swedish parents don't encourage their children to study. They think that is society's job. The general attitude was, and is, that schools should be good so students learn a lot and feel encouraged to study. Parents are not supposed to meddle too much.
Interesting! As for the teenage mental health thing...
Poland had a short-lived experiment with a 6-3-3 year split between primary, middle and high school, in which I had the misfortune to participate. After some years it was rolled back into an 8-4 primary+high school system.
The consensus seems to be that the primary school, whether 6 or 8 years long, is rough but okay, high school is almost entirely okay, and the middle school was an absolutely horrifying cesspool of toxicity. This certainly matches my experience. Seems 14-15 years is the hotspot of being a complete fuckwad and not having an entire school full of them helps.
I'm also kind of stumped why psychological warfare in Polish high schools seems muted, while in the US it's the worst. Obviously there were cliques but people kept to others with a similar vibe and weren't bothered. I didn't even _fight_ in high school, and not for a lack of will - there just wasn't really a reason to clock anyone in the face, we felt like we should behave as adults.
I really liked that last line :)
Great essay. I’ve been meaning to read this book for a very long time, as I live in New York City and have seen the same dynamic play out with regard to the college status jockeying game, where parents will put in a lot of effort to get their kids into a brand name college, just so they won’t lose status in front of their peers. It’s what led to the “Varsity Blues scandal” here in America a few years back. The college name is more important than the education.
Thank you! I absolutely recommend Primates of Park Avenue since it is easy to read. A nice bedtime story!
This is so horrifying. Seriously I find it really awful to contemplate that a bunch of people living in safety and plenty could end up like this. For hundreds of thousands of generations people lived in ignorance and illiteracy, on the edge of starvation, perpetually fearing disease and attack, grinding grain, carrying water, repairing their clothes by hand, and carving out amulets to wear in the hopes that they'd survive their appendicitis. And then, after the technological revolution brings wealth undreamed of, and all problems are solved... the Age of the Fashionable Handbag arises.
All this behavior sounds a lot like what went on amongst the nobility in times past. I think Tove has a point that people who don’t have to work or actually get things done just make social interactions their work.
There was a book back in the early 2000s called “The Nanny Diaries” which was a fictionalized satire on these sorts of Manhattan socialite women, as seen through the eyes of their nanny. It was perceived as a bit of an over-the-top satire by most readers; but my sister-in-law who used to be a nanny for a wealthy family said it was spot on with very little exaggeration.
I agree that people do find things to occupy themselves when there's nothing else for them to do: "Idle hands are the Devil's workshop." But if all of these hands are idle, why are handbag ladies playing social games rather than committing petty acts of vandalism or thievery?
When my boys are idle, they don't play social games. What they *do* do depends on their age: the younger ones they run around and throw things, while the older ones or draw and write computer programs. For myself on my vacation I try to be as alone as possible to write stories, make music, make some progress in philosophy, and otherwise pursue some creative endeavor. When I was still going to school, that was pretty much my summer vacation; I never engaged in handbaggery like this. Ask Tove or Anders if they've ever done anything like it themselves!
On the other hand, I know people at work who behave like handbag ladies, just in a watered down sort of way; I've just never encountered the phenomenon in its purest form. Really, it doesn't seem as though the lack of employment *causes* this; rather, it removes any distraction from whatever it is that people really want to be doing.
Wait a minute, 6-3-3...In Sweden that's not an experiment, but the way it is, always (?) was and always will be. (And, predictably, I actually participated in a physical fight as a 15-year-old, in 1999, not because I wanted to but because someone bigger and meaner wanted to). My two oldest children attended the same school until very recently and things really seems a lot better. I used to explain that with an increase in resources: They more or less doubled the number of teachers/ape-minders per student and it somehow seems to work.
How old are you, plus-minus? I always held the prejudice that Poles are studious compared to Swedes, probably because of a high pace of economic development: People were rather poor but hopeful, I thought. Meanwhile in Sweden, people could afford to live here and now, because grown-up life was so far away, and there was always a bunch of second chances. Higher education was not a certain road to success in Sweden in the early 2000s and most of the bullies seem to have gotten perfectly decent lower middle-class lives. Would you say those things were different in Poland?
I'm in my thirties. There certainly was a huge push from parents that we should study because it's a ticket to a better life, but... wasn't that present everywhere? This seems like a general 90s-00s mindset, before higher education lost most of its signaling value.
I wouldn't say the uh, less academically minded people got decent middle-class lives - those who were smart (even if street smart) went abroad to work for better money, those who stayed in Poland didn't have much to look forward to.
I suppose some of us had a subtext of "in a few years this asshole will be digging ditches (or realistically, be unemployed) while I have a comfy life" to our school interactions... but honestly that's not something you think about all that much when you're a teenager.
Hm, I have no memory that parents in general encouraged their children to study when I grew up. I think the typical Swedish attitude is that school should fix that: Swedish parents don't encourage their children to study. They think that is society's job. The general attitude was, and is, that schools should be good so students learn a lot and feel encouraged to study. Parents are not supposed to meddle too much.
Interesting! As for the teenage mental health thing...
Poland had a short-lived experiment with a 6-3-3 year split between primary, middle and high school, in which I had the misfortune to participate. After some years it was rolled back into an 8-4 primary+high school system.
The consensus seems to be that the primary school, whether 6 or 8 years long, is rough but okay, high school is almost entirely okay, and the middle school was an absolutely horrifying cesspool of toxicity. This certainly matches my experience. Seems 14-15 years is the hotspot of being a complete fuckwad and not having an entire school full of them helps.
I'm also kind of stumped why psychological warfare in Polish high schools seems muted, while in the US it's the worst. Obviously there were cliques but people kept to others with a similar vibe and weren't bothered. I didn't even _fight_ in high school, and not for a lack of will - there just wasn't really a reason to clock anyone in the face, we felt like we should behave as adults.
BTW, Tove K did reply to you, just outside of your thread here about middle schoolers being awful. (I think we're all getting used to substack.)
Oh, thanks!