Well I'm referring to attitudes while dating, not how receptive someone is to having sex. I'm also very hetero presenting. In my experience the women I've dated either think it's hot or just don't care. I also mostly date women so I'm pretty sure I'm more attractive/approachable to women than men.
The difference is see between men and women in relationships is in effort and entitlement. Women these days seem to see themselves as a prize and often act like dating is 'for them'. They expect the guy to make the moves, make the plans, put in most if not all the effort in an attempt to 'win them over'. Men, straight or otherwise, simply don't have that attitude.
Yes. My guess is that many women are on the casual or semi-casual dating market exactly because it is possible to have such an attitude there. Numbers are on their side. That probably attracts some women who simply like it where numbers are on their sides.
It is interesting, because it is so unlike the way those of us who were dating 20 years ago were: The general mood was still a certain desperation to be liked.
As a bisexual who has tried dating both on and off apps, women are absolutely too picky. It comes from a culture of telling every women she is a "queen" which is great for confidence building but has led to many women thinking they are more attractive or valuable (in a relationship) than they actually are in reality.
1. Homosexual men are known to be much more promiscuous than heterosexual women. How is it possible to know that it is not just that the men are more promiscuous?
2. How do you know that it is not you that appeal more to men than to women? I'm clearly no expert, but from what I have read, homosexual men tend to have certain tastes (I have read about tastes for dominant men and heterosexual men). Meanwhile, although I have no numbers I believe heterosexual women tend to prefer straight men to bisexual men.
>Those women tended to see Ted as a safer alternative to those macho men who had exhausted them emotionally.
Only a woman could possibly think that being the retirement plan for a used up pseudohooker by being a shoulder to cry on is a W
Keep talking ladies let the worker bee middle class men know they're wasting they're time doing anything but cumming in whatever is open and then deleting number
Women want men who commit because they believe in commitment. Not men who commit as long as they are forced to.
More women telling on themselves lol how much they hate the stability they claim to love. Duty, obligation, honor, these are the borrrrriing not filthyspatonholetingling glue that make society function
Whatever just go ahead and report me already truth is truth
Lower mate value men who commit because they know they are low mate value are not especially attractive to women. Women don't want men who commit because they realize that they can't get sex otherwise.
No one wants a Camry just because they can afford it 😂
Silly women lucky for you that the society you need to stop you from becoming rapebait for the highest bidder isn't dependent on even a modicum of rationality
>Is there any reason why this mindset would not be evenly spread across physical types of men? And across income categories?
Women telling on themselves, love to see it
Is there any reason why a billionaire would be less happy with a night at Applebee's?
Because people tend to adapt to what is reasonably available to them. The top men that all the women want, well women are fucking idiots who chase their tingles and that's why patriarchy kept them locked away and passed off like chattel from father to husband etc. it's cool I mean the tradeoff of idiocy is not that bad so long as there's comfortable first world democracy
I looked up Applebee's because I had never heard of it, but unfortunately they ban Europeans from visiting their homepage so I still know nothing about Applebee's...
They want to build something serious. Maybe not with this guy or that guy they date right now
Have their fun when they're actually worth a damn, is not, and then retirement plan when they're not longer hot lmao spat on pseudohookers. Real functional society you got there
Artificially keeping your mate value down below your potential seems like a bit of an own-goal. I can see how it can help avoiding attention from those who are only attracted to superficial beauty, which is probably a good thing, but it will also put you out of range for those partners who are genuinely of high mate value, and who could appreciate much deeper values as well.
As you mentioned, peaches and lemons exists across potential partners of both low and high mate value, and it is often not possible to discern which are which without spending serious time with them and getting to know them better.
If you are putting in that effort, wouldn't it make sense to put yourself in the highest bracket possible?
>>Artificially keeping your mate value down below your potential seems like a bit of an own-goal.
Especially as it can be achieved just through cutting down on artifice.
>>If you are putting in that effort, wouldn't it make sense to put yourself in the highest bracket possible?
Very interesting question! For women I think the highest ranges are just too crowded, which is a reason in itself to avoid them.
I don't think I would have been happier if I managed to marry a more sought-after man than I did. To the contrary, marrying someone important probably would have required a higher degree of adaptation and submission from my side. When it comes to looks, I assume that good enough is good enough. Being someone's long-term partner includes getting used to that person's looks. As long as someone looks good enough that I will happily get used to him, I don't think I would be happier with a man who looks like a movie star than with a man who is merely good-looking.
All in all, I don't think being up there makes much sense, except for people with fetishes for extremely conventionally good-looking people or for high socio-economic status.
Maybe the internet has thrown a wrench into our "perceived value", whatever that is. Everyone has always had their preferences, but what happens when our peers aren't our taste makers, or at least quality control? What happens when those responsibilities are outsourced, intentionally or not, to organizations that only worry about gold rushes and profit in the short term? The powers that control our wants and desires are the real lemons, itching abandon us for a quick buck. The thought of applying value to love and attraction makes me throw up a little in the mouth, they're foremost an art like medicine, not a shoddy economic science.
Great article, as have been others by you about dating apps, Chads, and women. I think the "men want to have a good time" is very true for most men most of the time. Especially hook-ups & friendly sexual relations. Choosing a woman who is expected to be a good mother to the children, as well as having a good time, is an added criteria for marriage.
The marriage marketplace for women is much more age sensitive. Young women who are 8s, 9s, 10s, in their 18-21, 22-25, and 26-30 age ranges, start going down in desirability far faster than men.
Years ago, decades, when I used classified adds (never mentioned pina coladas), I was looking for enjoyable mutual pleasure, and maybe more. Later, in my 30s, it was more serious - looking for a life partner mate. Lots of men want to play around when young, and only get serious later.
Thank you for a great article! However, the puzzle remains unanswered - why reject short men? Apart from their actual height, they are not more violent, less commited or otherwise "lower status".
There is no other rational reason to reject short men than the fact that they risk getting shorter sons. Which is equally much the case for short women. In other words, women have no more rational reasons to reject short men than men have rational reasons to reject short women.
I'm strongly suspecting that women do not in fact reject short men as much as it seems. The minority of women who frequent mainstream dating sites are more or less forced to set up some superficial selection criteria in order to handle the volume of contact attempts. Height is such a superficial criterium. That says rather little about the importance real-life women place on height.
I my experience, ladies are disturbingly hypergamous. At sixteen, I was competing with men in their twenties for the affection of my girlfriends. In my mid twenties, my fiancee was in her late teens - not because I like young women; I like women my own age. Now in my forties, girls frequently make unwelcome advances, comparing me to their boyfriends, thrusting themselves at me, and acting momentarily dismayed to find I'm married before shrugging as though it doesn't matter. When this kind of thing happens I try to cultivate a sort of sphynxlike mystery in order to avoid hurting their feelings, and this usually works pretty well. But earlier this year some parents came in to my work and brought their daughter in to with them, and pretending to ignore this kid's unsubtle advances in order to avoid the Fury Of A Woman Scorned, while simultaneously being seen as rebuffing those advances in her parents' eyes, was a fine line to walk. This is something I don't like at *all.*
Okey, now you are shocking me a bit: you mean that young women today are so much at ease with their parents that they flirt shamelessly in front of them?
I can imagine it is annoying. What do those women really want from you, you think?
I don't deny that women are a bit hypergamous - why wouldn't they be? If they have little reason to go for quantity, they will have to go for something else. But this so-hypergamous-that-no-ordinary-men-are-good-enough is something new. Previously, hypergamy was just one of all those preferences.
I can only speak from experience. I just mentioned this to my wife, and she said, paraphrased, "Oh yes, I remember X was all over you after we got married," but that was almost twenty years ago, and my response was (paraphrased) "No, she was subtle compared to what I told Tove about."
This is also not my favorite topic, but, I think Gen Z is hyperemotional and has a lot of trouble being subtle about things. When modern Americans want something, it's extremely hard not to get it. This is why everybody is overweight; anxiety levels are through the roof, life is barely tolerable, and desperation runs deep. I don't know what it's like in Sweden. Hopefully better than here!
Anders says he doesn't share your experience. No one has ever flirted with him, he says. But it might be because he has never been high-status. Or because he meets much fewer people than you.
Concerning age differences among couples: Thinking about it, I briefly dated a man in his late mid 20s when I was in my late teens. Not because I liked older men, but because...they were there. Although I didn't prefer men older than me, there were so many of them and so few men my age (when I was 19, those younger were off-limits or just invisible). The age difference thing can't just be an effect of male and female preferences. It should also be an effect of a lack of taboos: Younger women date men who are several years older simply because it is allowed.
Anders märkte bara inte. Han visste förmodligen inte allt då.
But younger women date older men, and poorer women date richer men, and drab, because women generally want older, richer, higher-status men:
Buss, D. M., Abbott, M., Angleitner, A., Asherian, A., Biaggio, A., Blanco-Villasenor, A., ... & Yang, K. S. (1990). International preferences in selecting mates: A study of 37 cultures. Journal of cross-cultural psychology, 21(1), 5-47.
The largest sex difference occurs for the variables of good financial prospect and good earning capacity. Females generally value good earning capacity in a mate more than males. An associated characteristic, ambition and industriousness, also showed a substantial effect in sex. Next in magnitude are... good looks and physical attractiveness. Males generally value appearance in potential mates more than females. Males also value good cook and housekeeper more than females. Of smaller magnitude, but somewhat worth noting, females place greater value than do males on educational background, emotional stability and maturity, favorable social status, education and intelligence, and college graduate.
One approach for providing more peach information is the date-me-doc, though I think it's too cringe in its current formulation. I think what we really need are personalized web pages that show not just the peach information, and not just dating information, but the entire, idiosyncratic character. I think a simple SquareSpace/Weebly personal page should be fine. However, it's risky and vulnerable to have dating information included on a personal, public website, so maybe there needs to be some sort of meta-app that connects people that are dating to secret sub-pages on people's personal websites.
I think that paradoxically, if people started considering internet dating a bit more shameful, it could be more personal and thereby successful. I have seen dating sites for people with sexual fetishes, for example, and there it is not the norm to display a big photo on one's front page. If conventional dating was also seen as something that should be hidden a bit from the rest of life, I think the photos would need to be replaced by more relevant information.
Well I'm referring to attitudes while dating, not how receptive someone is to having sex. I'm also very hetero presenting. In my experience the women I've dated either think it's hot or just don't care. I also mostly date women so I'm pretty sure I'm more attractive/approachable to women than men.
The difference is see between men and women in relationships is in effort and entitlement. Women these days seem to see themselves as a prize and often act like dating is 'for them'. They expect the guy to make the moves, make the plans, put in most if not all the effort in an attempt to 'win them over'. Men, straight or otherwise, simply don't have that attitude.
Yes. My guess is that many women are on the casual or semi-casual dating market exactly because it is possible to have such an attitude there. Numbers are on their side. That probably attracts some women who simply like it where numbers are on their sides.
More than some and more than just in casual dating. It is a real problem, hence why it's a topic for many men right now.
It is interesting, because it is so unlike the way those of us who were dating 20 years ago were: The general mood was still a certain desperation to be liked.
I agree, it seems completely flipped from the dynamic I saw in my parents growing up.
As a bisexual who has tried dating both on and off apps, women are absolutely too picky. It comes from a culture of telling every women she is a "queen" which is great for confidence building but has led to many women thinking they are more attractive or valuable (in a relationship) than they actually are in reality.
That seems difficult to compare, for two reasons
1. Homosexual men are known to be much more promiscuous than heterosexual women. How is it possible to know that it is not just that the men are more promiscuous?
2. How do you know that it is not you that appeal more to men than to women? I'm clearly no expert, but from what I have read, homosexual men tend to have certain tastes (I have read about tastes for dominant men and heterosexual men). Meanwhile, although I have no numbers I believe heterosexual women tend to prefer straight men to bisexual men.
If even he didn't want them, who would ever want them then?
NO ONE UNLESS ALL ARE MARRIED OFF AT PEAK YOUTH AND FERTILITY AS RHEY USED TO BE
THATS NOT SEXY BUT ITS THE ONLY WAY A SOCIETY CAN FUNCTION SORRY SPAT ON SLUTS GINEYTIMGLES ARENT A GOOD ORGANIZING PRiNCIPLE
>Those women tended to see Ted as a safer alternative to those macho men who had exhausted them emotionally.
Only a woman could possibly think that being the retirement plan for a used up pseudohooker by being a shoulder to cry on is a W
Keep talking ladies let the worker bee middle class men know they're wasting they're time doing anything but cumming in whatever is open and then deleting number
Women want men who commit because they believe in commitment. Not men who commit as long as they are forced to.
More women telling on themselves lol how much they hate the stability they claim to love. Duty, obligation, honor, these are the borrrrriing not filthyspatonholetingling glue that make society function
Whatever just go ahead and report me already truth is truth
Lower mate value men who commit because they know they are low mate value are not especially attractive to women. Women don't want men who commit because they realize that they can't get sex otherwise.
No one wants a Camry just because they can afford it 😂
Silly women lucky for you that the society you need to stop you from becoming rapebait for the highest bidder isn't dependent on even a modicum of rationality
Btw love your writing, so with that being said
>Is there any reason why this mindset would not be evenly spread across physical types of men? And across income categories?
Women telling on themselves, love to see it
Is there any reason why a billionaire would be less happy with a night at Applebee's?
Because people tend to adapt to what is reasonably available to them. The top men that all the women want, well women are fucking idiots who chase their tingles and that's why patriarchy kept them locked away and passed off like chattel from father to husband etc. it's cool I mean the tradeoff of idiocy is not that bad so long as there's comfortable first world democracy
I looked up Applebee's because I had never heard of it, but unfortunately they ban Europeans from visiting their homepage so I still know nothing about Applebee's...
They want to build something serious. Maybe not with this guy or that guy they date right now
Have their fun when they're actually worth a damn, is not, and then retirement plan when they're not longer hot lmao spat on pseudohookers. Real functional society you got there
Women have never been picky and they still aren't.
Tinder is for people looking for hook ups and short term flings. People looking for long term and marriage don't use it.
What do people who are looking for long-term and marriage use these days?
Apps that are focused on that or they just meet people in real life through social circles or whatever.
Artificially keeping your mate value down below your potential seems like a bit of an own-goal. I can see how it can help avoiding attention from those who are only attracted to superficial beauty, which is probably a good thing, but it will also put you out of range for those partners who are genuinely of high mate value, and who could appreciate much deeper values as well.
As you mentioned, peaches and lemons exists across potential partners of both low and high mate value, and it is often not possible to discern which are which without spending serious time with them and getting to know them better.
If you are putting in that effort, wouldn't it make sense to put yourself in the highest bracket possible?
>>Artificially keeping your mate value down below your potential seems like a bit of an own-goal.
Especially as it can be achieved just through cutting down on artifice.
>>If you are putting in that effort, wouldn't it make sense to put yourself in the highest bracket possible?
Very interesting question! For women I think the highest ranges are just too crowded, which is a reason in itself to avoid them.
I don't think I would have been happier if I managed to marry a more sought-after man than I did. To the contrary, marrying someone important probably would have required a higher degree of adaptation and submission from my side. When it comes to looks, I assume that good enough is good enough. Being someone's long-term partner includes getting used to that person's looks. As long as someone looks good enough that I will happily get used to him, I don't think I would be happier with a man who looks like a movie star than with a man who is merely good-looking.
All in all, I don't think being up there makes much sense, except for people with fetishes for extremely conventionally good-looking people or for high socio-economic status.
Maybe the internet has thrown a wrench into our "perceived value", whatever that is. Everyone has always had their preferences, but what happens when our peers aren't our taste makers, or at least quality control? What happens when those responsibilities are outsourced, intentionally or not, to organizations that only worry about gold rushes and profit in the short term? The powers that control our wants and desires are the real lemons, itching abandon us for a quick buck. The thought of applying value to love and attraction makes me throw up a little in the mouth, they're foremost an art like medicine, not a shoddy economic science.
Great article, as have been others by you about dating apps, Chads, and women. I think the "men want to have a good time" is very true for most men most of the time. Especially hook-ups & friendly sexual relations. Choosing a woman who is expected to be a good mother to the children, as well as having a good time, is an added criteria for marriage.
The marriage marketplace for women is much more age sensitive. Young women who are 8s, 9s, 10s, in their 18-21, 22-25, and 26-30 age ranges, start going down in desirability far faster than men.
Years ago, decades, when I used classified adds (never mentioned pina coladas), I was looking for enjoyable mutual pleasure, and maybe more. Later, in my 30s, it was more serious - looking for a life partner mate. Lots of men want to play around when young, and only get serious later.
Thank you for a great article! However, the puzzle remains unanswered - why reject short men? Apart from their actual height, they are not more violent, less commited or otherwise "lower status".
There is no other rational reason to reject short men than the fact that they risk getting shorter sons. Which is equally much the case for short women. In other words, women have no more rational reasons to reject short men than men have rational reasons to reject short women.
I'm strongly suspecting that women do not in fact reject short men as much as it seems. The minority of women who frequent mainstream dating sites are more or less forced to set up some superficial selection criteria in order to handle the volume of contact attempts. Height is such a superficial criterium. That says rather little about the importance real-life women place on height.
I my experience, ladies are disturbingly hypergamous. At sixteen, I was competing with men in their twenties for the affection of my girlfriends. In my mid twenties, my fiancee was in her late teens - not because I like young women; I like women my own age. Now in my forties, girls frequently make unwelcome advances, comparing me to their boyfriends, thrusting themselves at me, and acting momentarily dismayed to find I'm married before shrugging as though it doesn't matter. When this kind of thing happens I try to cultivate a sort of sphynxlike mystery in order to avoid hurting their feelings, and this usually works pretty well. But earlier this year some parents came in to my work and brought their daughter in to with them, and pretending to ignore this kid's unsubtle advances in order to avoid the Fury Of A Woman Scorned, while simultaneously being seen as rebuffing those advances in her parents' eyes, was a fine line to walk. This is something I don't like at *all.*
The average female is hypergamous, Tove.
Okey, now you are shocking me a bit: you mean that young women today are so much at ease with their parents that they flirt shamelessly in front of them?
I can imagine it is annoying. What do those women really want from you, you think?
I don't deny that women are a bit hypergamous - why wouldn't they be? If they have little reason to go for quantity, they will have to go for something else. But this so-hypergamous-that-no-ordinary-men-are-good-enough is something new. Previously, hypergamy was just one of all those preferences.
I can only speak from experience. I just mentioned this to my wife, and she said, paraphrased, "Oh yes, I remember X was all over you after we got married," but that was almost twenty years ago, and my response was (paraphrased) "No, she was subtle compared to what I told Tove about."
This is also not my favorite topic, but, I think Gen Z is hyperemotional and has a lot of trouble being subtle about things. When modern Americans want something, it's extremely hard not to get it. This is why everybody is overweight; anxiety levels are through the roof, life is barely tolerable, and desperation runs deep. I don't know what it's like in Sweden. Hopefully better than here!
Anders says he doesn't share your experience. No one has ever flirted with him, he says. But it might be because he has never been high-status. Or because he meets much fewer people than you.
Concerning age differences among couples: Thinking about it, I briefly dated a man in his late mid 20s when I was in my late teens. Not because I liked older men, but because...they were there. Although I didn't prefer men older than me, there were so many of them and so few men my age (when I was 19, those younger were off-limits or just invisible). The age difference thing can't just be an effect of male and female preferences. It should also be an effect of a lack of taboos: Younger women date men who are several years older simply because it is allowed.
Anders märkte bara inte. Han visste förmodligen inte allt då.
But younger women date older men, and poorer women date richer men, and drab, because women generally want older, richer, higher-status men:
Buss, D. M., Abbott, M., Angleitner, A., Asherian, A., Biaggio, A., Blanco-Villasenor, A., ... & Yang, K. S. (1990). International preferences in selecting mates: A study of 37 cultures. Journal of cross-cultural psychology, 21(1), 5-47.
The largest sex difference occurs for the variables of good financial prospect and good earning capacity. Females generally value good earning capacity in a mate more than males. An associated characteristic, ambition and industriousness, also showed a substantial effect in sex. Next in magnitude are... good looks and physical attractiveness. Males generally value appearance in potential mates more than females. Males also value good cook and housekeeper more than females. Of smaller magnitude, but somewhat worth noting, females place greater value than do males on educational background, emotional stability and maturity, favorable social status, education and intelligence, and college graduate.
Wonderful article, more please! :)
One approach for providing more peach information is the date-me-doc, though I think it's too cringe in its current formulation. I think what we really need are personalized web pages that show not just the peach information, and not just dating information, but the entire, idiosyncratic character. I think a simple SquareSpace/Weebly personal page should be fine. However, it's risky and vulnerable to have dating information included on a personal, public website, so maybe there needs to be some sort of meta-app that connects people that are dating to secret sub-pages on people's personal websites.
I think that paradoxically, if people started considering internet dating a bit more shameful, it could be more personal and thereby successful. I have seen dating sites for people with sexual fetishes, for example, and there it is not the norm to display a big photo on one's front page. If conventional dating was also seen as something that should be hidden a bit from the rest of life, I think the photos would need to be replaced by more relevant information.