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Apple Pie's avatar

So, having been looking this post over a few times and discussing it offline for the past several days, I've come to believe that the central theme really is not correct - it doesn't pass my bullshit detector. For one thing, it exists in a state of tension with your post on ideas:

https://woodfromeden.substack.com/p/the-order-of-thoughts

Either ideas are mostly bullshit, or they are mostly useful; I believe they are mostly useful, not mostly bullshit.

Now I can see a way to resolve the tension between these two positions: bullshit and ideas need to be two different things. Maybe we can agree that bullshit is primarily lies, while ideas are genuinely held. Or, maybe we can agree that bullshit is ideas that exist in the social, philosophical, or religious sphere, while ideas exist in the technical, practical, or economic world. This would allow for a bullshitting caste that basically just peddles nonsense that keeps people together, while others (workers?) generate ideas that move society forward.

But I don't think efforts to separate ideas from bullshit works - or at least, I don't believe ideas and bullshit are separate.

Take the idea that bullshit is deliberate lies, as opposed to ideas, which are sincerely held. It's true that there are people who frantically peddle bad ideas, or people who grit their teeth and latch onto one good idea and insist that all other good ideas are wrong. But the idea that all these people actually "get it," that they really know exactly how ridiculous they're being, and are just bullshitting everyone, violates Hanlon's Razor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

I'll grant that your idea of a bullshitting caste full of liars is going to be at least partly true. But I think it's abundantly obvious that there are at least a significant minority, and more likely an overwhelming majority, who aren't bullshitting at all - they're just clueless. This is why bullshitting works at all, because there are enough people who sincerely don't get it that they can be fooled by bullshit. So saying all the bullshitters are just lying doesn't make sense to me.

Or take the idea that bullshit exists in the social, philosophical, or religious realm, where useful ideas are found in the technical, practical, or economic realm. This matches my observations even less well. One of your best posts argued about why ladies have breasts: https://woodfromeden.substack.com/p/why-do-women-have-breasts . That post really seems much more to answer "How did things end up this way?" than "What are practical solutions to problems in the here-and-now?" Meanwhile Freudianism, Communism, and Cold Fusion seem to me to offer clear, actionable strategies for improving life, all of which have been shown to be basically bullshit.

So this is what I think: If our thinking class today has descended into superstition, virtue-signalling, and bullshit, it is something new, different, and bad about our civilization today, not something that always existed, or necessarily exists among the priests and medicine men. Once upon a time, our media was credible. Once upon a time, our scientists, doctors, and humanities departments were credible. Once upon a time, our governments were credible. Not always, but sometimes. Alas that this does not seem to be one of those times.

Apple Pie's avatar

Priests have always blended important social and academic functions with bullshit. Predicting the flooding of the Nile was not bullshit. Keeping records for Roman civilization was not bullshit. Redistributing tithes to the medieval poor was not bullshit. Instructing the Mayan nobility in reading, writing, and astronomy was not bullshit. Teaching modern Americans to code is not bullshit.

Even more, much of what we take today as solid science was pioneered by people who were absolutely full of shit, even if they may not have specifically been shoveling bullshit to maintain group solidarity. Kepler and Newton, two of the most important figures in what is known as the scientific revolution, spent an inordinate about of time concerned with mysticism. The same is true of Wallace, co-discoverer of the theory of evolution. The Curies were less mystics than they were enamored of seances. What we see when we look back across history is the way in which bullshit has been entwined throughout the thinking of learned men, and indeed entire societies.

People across history have had trouble figuring out what is real, and what isn't. Sometimes they swallow things that are wrong; other times that can't figure out what's right. The obvious implication is that people today are exactly the same. Much of modern thought is gold mistaken as bullshit and vice-versa.

So yes, agreed - modern academians are essentially priests, just as the Neoreactionaries insist. And yes, as you point out, priests have always been in the bullshitting business. But most people who aren't priests are still involved in the same. Babysitters, advertisers, HR personnel, customer service representatives, journalists, military officers, anybody who talks for a living pedals a certain amount of bullshit. When you get them alone and off the record, things do improve... slightly. Unfortunately for most people most the bullshit isn't even deliberate; it's totally intertwined with everything they believe.

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